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Old 12-11-2006, 02:56 PM   #1
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KCBS is doing an experiment

It looks like Jim Minion is going to be busy for a while.

Give 'em hell Jim.

Good Q!

Jack



Pulled from the KCBS website today:

At the recent December Board of Directors meeting and retreat a committee was formed, chaired by Jim Minion, to develop a new scoring system. Minion, Troy Black, and Merl Whitebook proposed to the Board that we develop and test a revision to the judging slips which would include definitions to be associated with each numerical score. The new judging slips will be developed by the board level committee, which includes Minion, Black and Whitebook, and will be tested extensively at various contests across the country. After a comprehensive evaluation is concluded, a recommendation will be made to the Board as to whether or not change our current judging slips. The committee will also study other possible solutions, improvements, and training needed to bring us closer to a goal of consistent scoring at our contests.
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Old 12-11-2006, 03:41 PM   #2
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Who's this Jim Minion you talk of?
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Old 12-11-2006, 04:41 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian j
that's good to hear but i don't know how they'll ever make judging bbq impartial.
Impartial...maybe not. I'd settle for consistent.

Good Q!

Jack
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Old 12-11-2006, 05:51 PM   #4
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We are going to look into two areas 1st when scoring the judge will have
a number system something like this:
9 Perfect
8 Excellent
7 Very Good
6 Good
5 Average
4 Below Average
3 Poor
2 Inedible
1 Disqualification
this will be used by few hand pick reps across the country and we monitor results.

The second thing we are looking at is judge training, the idea is to set a standard for each meat on what is correctly cook product. The judge will be asked to judge to those standards. By this I mean if a correctly cooked rib as an example should come clean off the bone where the bite is taken. The rib should not be fall off the bone but as a judge if that is what you like we want you to understand that needs to be scored down and we expect you to.

The idea is to set a standard and have judges score accordingly. This should bring scores in line and we should not see as much of the 9-8-8-8-5-9 type scores.

Taste is still going to be subjective but we want the training to get into how to judge bbq, now there is too much time spent on what is a disqualification.

I know we can see results but it won't happen over night. If anyone has any constructive ideas I would like to hear them.
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Old 12-11-2006, 06:05 PM   #5
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Why dont somebody suggest they toss out the wet lettuce while they making changes?

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Old 12-11-2006, 06:37 PM   #6
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It's been suggested, doesn't look like that it's time has come for that.
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Old 12-11-2006, 07:29 PM   #7
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Well Jim I hope it all works out. I'm glad to see that at least something is trying to be done to improve it!
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Old 12-11-2006, 09:21 PM   #8
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Jim, I dont mean to drag this thread off topic but is there an age restriction for the judgeing class. I think I rember reading somewhere that you needed to be 16 to judge a contest. Does that mean you need to be 16 to take the class and if I was to take the class does that mean I could judge when I turn 16 or would I have to do the class again?

Thanks
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Old 12-12-2006, 08:08 AM   #9
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I like the idea. 5= average and makes total sense even though it is a death number, average shouldnt win. Giving someone less than a 5 should be addressed by the table captain imho. Folks spend lots of $ and work hard to cook at these events to have that thrown at them. If it is 4 or less I would like a short explanation to be given on the cooks final sheet that is handed out at the end of the contest and it could be a single word as
Overcooked
Undercooked
Greasy
Dry
Bland
You get the idea. That doesnt seem like to much trouble to me.

I also thought garnish should be thrown out but have since had a change of heart. Food does look better all gussied up and it is a skill to get it looking good.

I cant wait for this up and coming season.
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Old 12-12-2006, 11:34 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jminion
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It's been suggested, doesn't look like that it's time has come for that.

I have a good question is it true that KCBS events are now garnish optional ??? If not do they take points away if there is no garnish in the turn in plate?

I myself would rather spend the time I have getting my turn in done right and not have to worry about taking the time to pick out the right garnish to line my plate. Just my 2 cents there.
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Old 12-12-2006, 02:56 PM   #11
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Garnish is optional and from things I have heard judges say in the past they would mark you down for garnish not looking right or you can get DQ'd if illegal garnish is used.

The judges were instructed this year to judge the meat and not take the garnish into consideration. There have been teams that have done well without garnish, there some teams that are afraid to not use garnish.
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Old 12-12-2006, 09:38 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Burnt Food Dude
Also, I think letting judges talk about each entry (at that table) as they are judging it may give more consistant scores. It may help the newer judges gain consistancy compared to other judges.
With the utmost respect, I disagree with BFD about allowing judges to talk about the entry as they are judging. Others easily influence some people. While it could lead to more consistency at the table, it could lend to a higher or lower score. Talking after the judging is complete is a way to help new judges without impacting scoring.

I do agree that better training and maybe refresher training for judges might help. Becoming a certified judge by taking one course is like taking golf lessons and then calling yourself a pro. It doesn’t work that way. It takes practice and playing to get good/better. I think a newly trained judge should be required to work under supervision of experienced judges for several events before being made a certified judge. Just my experience from being a judge myself.

Oh yeah, on the garnish topic. Glad to hear the KCBS judges are now instructed to judge the meat only. I judge BBQ, not salad.

With all that said, I have seen all sorts of judging score sheets and have not found any of the perfect. I agree with Jack W. You probably will never get rid of the subjection or impartiality, that is just human nature. But training can help provide consistency.

Good luck, Jim. You have a hard job ahead of you. If I can help any, PM me. I would be more then happy to talk shop.
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Old 12-13-2006, 08:39 AM   #13
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Oh Boys a lil green in the box is fun
My son Kyle is dang creative with it
I dont mind it at all
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Old 12-17-2006, 02:58 AM   #14
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Well guess you know at the big yankee KCBS contests some of the contestants fly in artsy fartsy plating ladies from New Yawk City to arrange the curly endive and such thangs? Now that pisses me off for some reason. Comp bbq has lost it's soul. Let us give a big thank you to KCBS for making it happen.

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Old 12-17-2006, 03:45 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnt Food Dude
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZBQ
Just some food for thought about the appearance of food.

I have several friends who are chefs/culinary instructors and they will all tell you
that "You eat with your eyes first, your nose second and your mouth last."


Not making a case for or against garnishes, but I think appearance is definately an important factor
in how we decide how good or bad something is going to taste before we eat it.
I agree, that you eat with your eyes also. However, at my last comp, I've been told by a couple of KCBS Reps that some "culinary trained" bbq cookers have been DQ once or twice. Why? Because they made their turn in box to unique and fancy.

Hmmm, they let you to use garnish to make your turn in box look good but you can't make it look to good? Why garnish at all? I say get rid of garnish!
If this were true I would like the name of the Reps that made that call. That would be a total B*** Sh** call. There is all most no way to get DQ for marking and making a box unique or fancy has never been a correct rulling for a DQ.
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Old 12-17-2006, 08:40 PM   #16
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Under #13 you really gave to go out of your way to get DQ'd under it.
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Old 12-17-2006, 09:16 PM   #17
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We are doing some interesting things with the greens
Marking has to be the most over rated "Problem" of all time
The odds of getting enough Judges fixed with random nature of
Box distribution are so high as to be almost impossible
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Old 12-17-2006, 11:15 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnt Food Dude
Rule #13 of the KCBS Rules & Regs seem to suggest that you can't make a box too unque.
Me I would put as much meat in that box as would fit and not be messy!!!!
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Old 12-18-2006, 12:59 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnt Food Dude
Not to start an argument about rule interpertation...

The fancy chefs on TV drizzle some sauce on a plate before putting down the main plate item. Then one chef does a "Bam" with his essence.

Now if I was the only competitor to drizzle some BBQ Sauce over the bed of lettuce (just drizzle and not pool) place my meat in the box and do a bam with my rub, wouldn't that make it unique and identifiable to me?

(I better get my TF hat. The space people (or is it the government) are starting to control my mind again)
If you were to drizzle a $ sign or a number or letter then yes but to just drizzle sauce would not be enought to cause a DQ.
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