Diva Q
Executive Chef
Tony I think your article is very well written and articulated quite clearly.
Fairness In KCBS Judging
- Thread starter Diva Q
- Start date
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Kloset BBQR
Executive Chef
Tony, great, great job! Like I said before I'd love to have my BBQ judge by you and judges like you.
Is this an article written for your blog or do you intend to send it out. I think it should be sent out to every contest organizer and a copy given to every judge.
I remember taking a couple of BBQ classes, one by Mike Davis and one by Myron Mixon who both taught the same technique about presenting brisket. Both cook using whole packers and do not separate the flat from the point. Both Mike and Myron said to slice the brisket so that the slice contains both the point and flat. You'll be able to cover up the thin line of fat the connects the point and the flat so that the judges won't see it at presentation but as the saying goes fat is flavor and you want the judges to get a piece of the brisket off of the flat. To make a long story short, I had a judge talk to me after the contest in Cincinnati last year and we were talking about brisket and I mentioned how I turned my brisket in (keep in mind that I did the same thing that year in a contest in Virginia and came in 6th place against the likes of Myron, Mike Davis, Johnny Trigg, Byron Chism, Dixie Chicks, etc) and he told me that he'd whished I wouldn't have done that and that he scored me down considerably for that because he doesn't like fat and he likes his brisket lean. I told him that Judges are not supposed to bring their personal preferences into judging bus instead judge the product as presented to them. I was more than a little ticked off by the comment and the KCBS rep (Phil Brazier) overheard the conversation and personnally came over and apologized for the inexperience of the judges (this was a first year contest).
Sorry for the long winded message but its nice to know that there are judges out there that take their duties serioussly and live up to their oath. Thats why I stated earlier that I think the best judges have had experience as a competition cook.
Thanks again Tony!
Is this an article written for your blog or do you intend to send it out. I think it should be sent out to every contest organizer and a copy given to every judge.
I remember taking a couple of BBQ classes, one by Mike Davis and one by Myron Mixon who both taught the same technique about presenting brisket. Both cook using whole packers and do not separate the flat from the point. Both Mike and Myron said to slice the brisket so that the slice contains both the point and flat. You'll be able to cover up the thin line of fat the connects the point and the flat so that the judges won't see it at presentation but as the saying goes fat is flavor and you want the judges to get a piece of the brisket off of the flat. To make a long story short, I had a judge talk to me after the contest in Cincinnati last year and we were talking about brisket and I mentioned how I turned my brisket in (keep in mind that I did the same thing that year in a contest in Virginia and came in 6th place against the likes of Myron, Mike Davis, Johnny Trigg, Byron Chism, Dixie Chicks, etc) and he told me that he'd whished I wouldn't have done that and that he scored me down considerably for that because he doesn't like fat and he likes his brisket lean. I told him that Judges are not supposed to bring their personal preferences into judging bus instead judge the product as presented to them. I was more than a little ticked off by the comment and the KCBS rep (Phil Brazier) overheard the conversation and personnally came over and apologized for the inexperience of the judges (this was a first year contest).
Sorry for the long winded message but its nice to know that there are judges out there that take their duties serioussly and live up to their oath. Thats why I stated earlier that I think the best judges have had experience as a competition cook.
Thanks again Tony!
Gary in VA
Head Chef
Very well said. I agree 100% with what you have said. Will it change the KCBS judging & scoreing... probably not in the near future, but what you have written should be sent to all the KCBS Board Members and maybe it will be considered. It would take many many judges alot of retraining, but it would be worth it.
I will be sure to bring it up with Merl Whitebook next week on the radio show.
Unity
Executive Chef
You present your case well. Not being a competition cook, I don't have the experience to comment on KCBS judging, but I refereed sports for a while, and I see a lot of parallels. It's not easy to lock out your own biases and personal preferences, but applying the rules evenly and fairly is at least as important as knowing them. It sure looks like KCBS instruction needs to improve.
--John
(Referees' calls are made in full public view, and questionable calls are booed, sometimes reviewed. I wonder how barbecue judging would change if ... )
--John
(Referees' calls are made in full public view, and questionable calls are booed, sometimes reviewed. I wonder how barbecue judging would change if ... )
Finney
Master Chef
Pretty darn good article. Should be part of the KCBS judging curriculum.
Rag1
Executive Chef
Change is needed.....I competed twice now and was passed over for Grand Champ both times. 
Adrienne1
Senior Cook
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2006
- Messages
- 291
Great article - well put, and concise. I have printed it, and would like to share it with a few people, pending your permission to do so, of course.
I am especially fond or your reference to 'preferential bias' within the KCBS judging community. I believe this will always be a factor in judging, to some point, with some people. It is difficult to judge each entry individually and with independance from the other entries; even more difficult to dismiss personal likes and dislikes to maintain due dilligence, as is needed to judge fairly.
The CBA is currently in a period of change, and judging is a HUGE factor here. There are a few folks who are in pursuit of having the judging here more closely mirror the KCBS mantra. In the past, our (uncertified) judges have been instructed to compare the food they are presented with at competition to the best restaurant food they've ever tasted, and score accordingly. Judges have also been given fairly exact descriptions of dishes as being turned in by various competitors, and told that these dishes represent the top end of what is being offered at the competition. Naturally, once received, the described dishes are scored close to perfect, subsequent to the 'juges training'. Pretty flawless, no?
Please keep your fingers crossed that the needed changes are implemented here, to provide a more even playing field for all competitors.
At any rate, thanks for your article, and your thoughts. I will keep my fingers crossed for you, in your pursuit.
I look forward to your permission to share the article!
I am especially fond or your reference to 'preferential bias' within the KCBS judging community. I believe this will always be a factor in judging, to some point, with some people. It is difficult to judge each entry individually and with independance from the other entries; even more difficult to dismiss personal likes and dislikes to maintain due dilligence, as is needed to judge fairly.
The CBA is currently in a period of change, and judging is a HUGE factor here. There are a few folks who are in pursuit of having the judging here more closely mirror the KCBS mantra. In the past, our (uncertified) judges have been instructed to compare the food they are presented with at competition to the best restaurant food they've ever tasted, and score accordingly. Judges have also been given fairly exact descriptions of dishes as being turned in by various competitors, and told that these dishes represent the top end of what is being offered at the competition. Naturally, once received, the described dishes are scored close to perfect, subsequent to the 'juges training'. Pretty flawless, no?
Please keep your fingers crossed that the needed changes are implemented here, to provide a more even playing field for all competitors.
At any rate, thanks for your article, and your thoughts. I will keep my fingers crossed for you, in your pursuit.
I look forward to your permission to share the article!
big dude
Sous Chef
I'm neither a competitor nor a judge, but you've written a great article.
